Minutes of the Meeting with Margaret Carney taken by Nina and compiled by Nina and Celia.

Many thanks to Nina and Celia for so much work!

If you were at the meeting and want to make any additions please e-mail southportanticuts@hotmail.co.uk or call 01704 531613. If no other amendments, or comments on the amendments I want to make, have been recieved by the next regular meeting these minutes will be assumed agreed. The next regular meeting is 14/3/11.

I (Kat) have the following amendments:

Question number 1 from Liz Ford was read by Anthony Molyneux as Liz was not able to attend. The right to reply was also given to him.

Chris Burgess was not able to attend either so question 3 was read by Nina.

Peter Bamford was also unable to attend so question 4 was also read by Nina.

Question 5 by Tom Thomson was altered slightly on the evening. Although I'm not entirely sure what Tom actually said Margaret's answer is to the original question and the addition was treated as the "right of reply"

Question 12 from Lillian Wright was read by Dave Bridge and the right of reply was also passed to him since Lillian also could not attend on the night.

For interest - After the meeting Celia and I counted the money - £80 went to pay the balance on the room. I donated the £20 deposit that I had paid previously which left £57 to be shared between SWACA and Parenting 2000. This was not part of the meeting however so perhaps should not be included officially in the minutes.

 "SACC Meeting with Margaret Carney

Minutes

15/2/11

8pm

The Royal Clifton

 

 

 

Kat Sumner: Hello all, and welcome to our meeting with Margaret Carney, Sefton Council’s Chief Executive. I am Kat Sumner and I Chair the Southport Anti-Cuts Coalition. We are very grateful to Ms Carney for agreeing to this meeting at a time when the council is under considerable pressure from all sides. I hope that it will be one of a series of opportunities to unify the public and Sefton Council.  We want this to be an opportunity for the people to get some insight into the council’s operations and also to build a more positive and communicative relationship with the council.

 

SACC itself is an independent, open group, all our meetings are public meetings and we do not have any formal membership. We are committed to positive action as well as the exposure and opposition of unfair cuts. We want to be able to work with people to find positive solutions. The first step towards this is finding out how the land lies - what proposals are being made, how they are identified and presented to the Full Council for voting, how the public have been consulted before the matters are put to council and how things are prioritised as well as how the council’s funding is changing.

 

We have noticed that there is an identifiable level of anger amongst residents of Sefton about the way the cuts seem to be being proposed and where they seem to be being identified.  It is also noted that many people I have encountered personally speak very favourably about Ms Carney in her role as Chief Executive.  We understand that she has no real role in making the decisions, rather this is the role of the elected councillors. 

 

We also understand that part of what is being expressed by the public, is commonly that they feel they are being excluded and the proposals are being identified and put to council very quickly and without, it is felt, enough public input. Rumour is rife and people involved in sectors or projects which are threatened are worried about the future. SACC would like to address this point with the part of the council which is responsible and feel this falls more appropriately under the Chief Executive’s department whose remit is to oversee the gathering of information, making proposals for savings, categorising of proposals, conducting of public consultations and presenting of reviews of departments to Full Council for voting and for decisions to be made.

 

We plan to hold a meeting with the Council’s elected Political Leaders, subject to their agreement and timetable, where public questions of a political nature will be answered. I would always ask that anyone attending a meeting be respectful and polite throughout any meeting that we hold. For this meeting particularly, please understand that Ms Carney who is not an elected representative, is accountable to the councillors rather than directly to the public and it is her free choice, rather than her responsibility, to attend the meeting today - which we very much appreciate.

 

 Please do not compromise Ms Carney. If she is unable to answer your question please respect this and SACC will endeavour to obtain an answer for you from another more appropriate channel. It is our responsibility to behave in a way that is conducive to consultation.

 

Thank you, I will now pass you over to Ms Carney who will present a short introductory speech followed by 60 minutes of planned questions and a short period for open questions.

 

MARGARET CARNEY:

Normally I would start by saying I am pleased to be here, but none of us are pleased to be here because of the nature of what we are trying to deal with. The chances are there are things you would like me to answer, but I can only focus on facts, not political comment. If there is anything I can’t answer tonight I would be happy to find them for you later.

 

£600 million a year is the council’s budget, but the amount the council directly spends is £230 million the rest is spent for the council on things like schools, Merseytravel and Merseywaste. Of that £230 million over half is spent on adult and child social care. Three quarters of the budget comes from government, the rest from council tax. The council must legally set a balanced budget by March 10; we can’t say we are not going to do that. I have a responsibility to make sure that it is balanced and expenditure equals income. We can’t legally borrow to fund day to day services; we can only borrow to fund investment. When we set the budget (this year) the amount we receive will have gone down by £30 million from April 2010 to April 2011. On top of that, spending pressures mean we need to spend an extra £14 million on things like an aging population and more children in care, so that is an extra £14 million we need to save. So that equals £44 million to cut. Next year based on the government spending review a further £20 million needs to be saved on top, which is a total £64 to be cut; a total of 30% of our controllable budget. So it is not just about the size of the cuts it’s the pace. By June 2010 we needed to make a reduction of £6 million. In October we were given indicative totals of £38 million, in December when we finally knew how much money we would have it gave us only 3 to 4 months to identify and implement the cuts. We had to decide what was most important and it’s hard choices. If we asked around this room what’s most important we’d have a range of responses, and none of them are wrong. Councillors have made these decisons and they have not been made lightly. We have tried to minimise the impact, but we can’t take that amount out without people noticing. I would have loved to have 18 months for consultation, but we have not had that opportunity. You would be the judge of whether (the cuts) are right or not, and you are entitled to do that.

 

 

Submitted questions

 

1. Liz Ford:

If the budget constraint is coming directly from Central Government, what are the council doing to make the case for Sefton with Central Government? For example, in order to protect services, have Sefton applied for any money from the emergency fund, which has been mentioned by the DCLG in the press (The Guardian, Society, 13/12/10)? Also, what problems have Sefton encountered when identifying proposals for cuts and savings? 

MC: I wrote to the prime minister and the deputy prime minister outlining our concerns about the process. I am in regular contact with the 3 MPs from Sefton, I briefed John Pugh (Southport MP) on Friday. (Ms Carney said she was also in touch with the Local Authority Association and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives which she is a member. )

The emergency fund is not something you apply to, it is something you become eligible for, and Sefton is not.

Antony, who read out Liz’s question, asked whether the council would consider doing what Liverpool socialist councillors did in the 80s – break the law and oppose the government for the moral good. She said that isn’t something she has considered, saying ‘as an officer of the council I have a legal responsibility and will stick with that’.

2. David Wilding:

Why have Youth Centres been identified as a proposed area to make savings? I don’t believe our children should suffer, ultimately because of the sins of the bankers. 

MC: We have to find £44 million for the 3^rd March, we have had to prioritise services. Officers have tiered services. Universal services versus targeted services for vulnerable. Youth services are considered by us to be universal and not part of the essential services. The council is in touch with schools about using their facilities to run more groups, some do very well, some could do more. Going to do a review at some point to see if impacting vulnerable young people too much.

3. Chris Burgess (youth centres):

With the imminent closure of Youth Service provision within Sefton (especially affecting North Sefton), the delayed closure of Sure Start Family Centres the cutting back of leisure services including the free and active initiative and the removal of Children's A & E in Sefton, just what does Sefton Council offer the young people of the borough?

Already, this group of sefton citizens who are more politically aware than the Council leaders give them credit for, are demonised as being nothing but trouble and are often the targets of residents nimbyism - really will have nothing to do and nowhere to go. 

MC: The children’s centres are subject to review, (couldn’t talk much about it therefore).

Schools can provide a key role in extended provision.

We do want to provide services, it is just priorities.

 

4. Peter Bamford:

Why is there no charge for parking at Crosby Baths and Burbo Bank (for Anthony Gormleys 'Another Place')? Yet there is a charge at Dunes Leisure Centre in Southport and an 8am - 8pm charge on Southport sea front? This is costing the council at least £1 milion per annum in lost revenue. Also, why is there a major reduction to park at Bootle Strand on a sunday (70p all day) yet no similar reduction in a major shopping centre like Southport? 

 MC: There is a charge for Splashworld but it is refunded for 2 hours for users. The estimate is £100,000  not £1million – but still worthwhile. Will consider that in May. Bootle carpark does not operate on a Sunday, (wonders if there is confusion with another carpark operated by the shopping centre).

5. Tom Thompson

Why are business rates so high in the Southport area compared to Liverpool and Preston? How are Sefton going to incentivise regeneration of Southport Town Centre when rates are comparatively high? 

MC: The council does not set the business rates, they are set nationally by HMRC. We collect them and they are paid to the government. In terms of the regeneration, we don’t own much rental property. Rates are set up by private landlords – we have met with retailers – where we can identify the landlords which can be difficult as often owned by pension funds overseas. Meeting with leading businessmen to see how we can work together.

Planning jobs and skills, need to balance need around regional, sub-regional and national. Money schemes are no longer there – ran out (e.g. capital of culture money pots)

Other way to ensure that the economy keeps going in this difficult time.

Open invitation. Local business want to be involved, more than happy to invite you.

Redundancy effect – 51% of people working in Sefton work for the public sectors. The government hopes the private sector will pick it up but there will be a time lag.

 

6. Gemma Brannan (Save Our Children’s Centres):

If you are receiving the Early Years Intervention Grant, yet you are proposing to close the Children’s Centres - where is the money then going to go? 

MC: We are not proposing to close them, they are under review. There is some confusion about this grant, it is quite complicated. In 2010-2011 it should have been £15.1 million – it is made up of money we used to receive anyway. It has been reduced to £11.3m, a £3.8m/25% reduction. The government say it hasn’t reduced it but I know what comes in and out. But we are putting more in than that would indicate. I’m happy to go through those figures with you.

(Gemma asked then why John Pugh has told her the council IS getting the grant if in fact they are not)

I have briefed John Pugh and he is taking those figures to the government. I have seen documents that we are not getting it, John Pugh has letters that we are.

7. Jim Ford:

The town of Southport has in recent years lost or is about to lose in the name of “Sefton” the following local services:-

1.  1.The planning department

2.  2. Building Regulations dept

3.  3. Environmental Health

4.  4. Law Courts

5.  5. Botanic Gardens Museum

6.  6. Birkdale, Ainsdale and Churchtown libraries

7.  7. Our local history service (remember that the history of Southport which is on the Ribble is quite distinct from that of Crosby which is on the Mersey)

8.  8. Gritting/snowploughing

 

 

In most cases these services have been “centralized” into various parts of “South Sefton” the centre of which is located over twenty miles from our town. Now we appear to be losing “our” allocation of Youth and Sure Start Centres, whilst those in South Sefton are preserved.  

How has Sefton analysed the impact of the current programme of cuts to ensure that these do not fall disproportionately on our town, which is 20 miles distant from the centre of South Sefton (ie Bootle Crosby and Maghull) where Sefton services are increasingly being centralized. What is the outcome of the geographical impact assessment which Sefton Council has carried out to ensure equity and that our town is not disproportionately experiencing cuts across a range of services and that cuts are fairly distributed across the Borough of Sefton.” 

MC: No we haven’t carried out geographical impact assessments – but we carry out quality impact assessments.

Will be going to be available on website soon.

Demographics not geography.

We will identify where the geographical impacts will fall –

Some things hit Southport – others hit elsewhere in Sefton – hitting everyone. Southport has an ageing population, south Sefton has a younger population – services depend on those factors.

Happy to share analyses.

Happy to develop neighbourhood approaches.

What we have been developing as a process to make that happen –(Ms Carney spoke about the Area Partnership – to bring together people interested in Southport, Formby, and we see how our resources can be used)

Needs of Formby very different to Southport and Bootle.

Children’s centres – not true that all the south Sefton centres are safe – they are being looked at too. Youth services etc which are run by voluntary and faith groups with funding from the council has been under review.

Q: Can we have a town council not a toothless area committee?

Ms Carney refused to answer on the basis that it is political – said take up with councillors.

8. Blyth Crawford:

What consideration has been given to advising the council to overspend to reduce the impact of cuts? Is there any suggestion that other authorities might take this option? 

MC: We have net savings – the cabinet has a full report. Tried to identify all the money we put aside for other projects.

To deliver those savings will have to make people redundant.

But some people will be disappointed if thought going to get something (funds) – but needs to be reprioritised.

Frontloading – trying to smooth out.

Details on what money has been found and what it can be spent on instead:

One-off resources to do that.

£12 million from reappraisal from insurance.

Ms Carney said they have already taken  out money from rainy day pots – and money set aside for future projects – reassessments of needs is greater to go to things like social care.

 

9. Phil Riley:

Does Ms Carney have an estimate of the cost to Sefton of the proposed redundancies and the additional pension costs arising from early retirements associated with the redundancies. As things stand these will all fall in 2011/12 and it will impact on the level of service that can be provided by Sefton. Has Sefton also assessed the impact of the redundancies on the local economy? 

MC: Very difficult to know how much redundancy will cost – as each individual circumstances are different. Our best estimate is £3 million in current financial year because have been voluntary scheme for 12 to 18 months. Margin of error is huge, £10m.

We will work with private sector – government’s approach to make up shortfall – if that is possible we want to maximise it. Govt have set up a regional growth fund, and we will use that as much as we can. The next couple of years will be tough. About job cuts now, private sector will take time.

We will continue to work regionally and nationally – investment opportunities, job opportunities outside of Sefton. Help people find work.

It will have an impact on Sefton - significant one

10. Maureen Whalley:

Margaret, can you let us know what is going to happen to the "Growing Business" at Park Lodge on Rotten Row? This enterprise is Front Line and involves adults with learning difficulties, who grow and produce

plants for sale to the general public. It does a sterling job and has

been going many years. It gets adults with learning difficulties into

other employments. As the Authority is thinking of cutting the staff

at Botanic gardens I would like an answer to my question. 

MC: I agree it is a fantastic scheme we should be looking to replicate. It is currently run with money from the Big  Lottery Fund not council money, (but we will try to involve local colleges to try to support it)

11. John Corscaden (Sefton Carers Forum):

If the Council believes in consultation then why ignore the findings when the majority vote against a proposal, leaving the feeling that never mind what you think/want we will do it anyway. 

MC: In terms of the current position, we haven’t always been able to follow the comprehensive consultation process we’d like to.  It’s a consultation not a referendum so it’s not always what the decision is going to be. It’s our general approach (to follow the consultation results) but we are not always going to be able to do that.  We are currently consulting in libraries over opening hours. We will still try to engage. With the Botanic Gardens having gone through the process we amended it to still deliver some savings, but with not as extensive cuts.

(John asked specifically about Specialised Transport Services)

When you are consulting about increasing charges, the answer is going to be no, that would be my response too. It will be put before the elected members.

12. Lillian Wright:

Ms Carney, there was an article in The Visiter on Friday (4/2/11) where you empathised with the drastic reduction in frontline staff. I understand we pay you £150,000 per annum plus expenses and your pension contributions. How much did the councillors from Southport wards claim from Sefton Council in the tax year up to march 2010 in expenses and allowances? Does this include travel and pension contributions? Can we expect a reduction in your salary and perks and in your fellow councillor’s salaries and perks? You are after all a public servant. What are you doing to manage by example?  

MC: I empathised with all staff, those that will lose their jobs and those who will have very different roles on new terms and conditions. There will be a major reduction in staff, some frontline, 30% senior managers. In 2009/10 Southport councillors claimed £350,000 in allowances. I am proud to be a public servant. Although I do have a big salary I have a passion for public service and have had for 30 years. I have already taken a voluntary reduction in my salary, and I have never claimed expenses from the council. I’m doing my job working tirelessly to support the council, I have adapted to minimise the impact, I have been covering the Finance Officer’s job for the past year saving the council £100,000, and been visibly supporting staff, out in the community to advise community members about minimising the impact. My commitment to public service is undeniable.

13. Nina Killen (secretary of SACC):

Newcastle City Council has signed up to protocol to avoid compulsory

redundancies. Has Sefton Council looked into how they are managing

this and considered doing the same? What surpluses are available eg in schools and how are they being used? Has the council considered borrowing to make more money available? 

MC: We’d love to say no redundancies and we have tried to put things in place to mitigate compulsory redundancies. There’s no protocol but we are working closely with trade unions. We’ve had a volunmtary redundancy scheme in place for 18mths, a jobs freeze and a bump redundancy scheme where if someone wants to go they can replaced by someone else who may otherwise have been made redundant. That person leaves and the other moves into their role. We have not been totally successful but are trying to do anything we can.

School surplus - £12m, that’s down by £3m. Schools can retain 8% of budget (Primaries, special schools), 5% (secondaries). Anything above that goes to the Schools Forum. Legally that money can only be used for school-based spending. We are working closely with schools - some of them have fantastic facilities that may become available for wider public use.

Questions developing from regular SACC meetings:

14. Have Environmental and human rights impacts been considered and Equality Impact Assessments and public consultations been conducted for each proposal sent to full council? How is this being done?

MC: We do high impact assessments when you go through decommissioning, we monitor the effects of that. Any discrimination we will go and consider. All our analysis will be available on the website soon.

15. How are you following the COMPACT guidelines, which guide the partnership between the public sector and the charitable and voluntary sectors, when proposing savings?  

MC: We do have a compact agreement.

We want to make sure it’s valuable.

It protects many valuable voluntary and faith sector schemes, but not to say that they have not suffered a reduction. The report in January had a full analysis of the reductions and reasons.

16. How have you approached making proposals to Full Council - what criteria has been used to identify where cuts and savings can be made?  

MC: Working with a short timescale, as soon as we knew we started the consultation. We tell staff that their service is under consideration, but we are not able to say a decision has been made.  As soon as a decision has been made we try to go face to face with the staff to outline the full decision and go into the full consultation process.

17. Was there any public consultation or consultation with staff at the children’s centres and the Botanic Gardens before proposals for savings were sent to Full Council? 

 

Not answered – as felt already addressed.

 

On to open questions. Kat reminded audience that in order for everyone to be able to have a chance to speak it was necessary to behave respectfully and there should be no disruptions or people would be asked to leave.

 

OPEN QUESTIONS

 

If there are images in this attachment, they will not be displayed.  Download the original attachment

 

Can you manipulate ring-fenced funding to use the money elsewhere?

MC: First priority is to identify critical frontline services that we have to provide by law. The majority of budget is schools, and they set their own budget. Merseywaste? These budgets are unlikely to come back to the council. Where we can, whether contracts are up for renewal or not, we are negotiating on price and quantity.

 

2. Reducing the numbers of councillors

MC: Reducing the number of councillors was considered last year, didn’t decide to go ahead. Means that can’t be looked at that again for several years.

3. ‘Politically correct’ roles – are they going to be scrapped to save money – like equality posts?

MC. Depends what you call politically correct – that could be someone else’s idea of ensuring access. To make sure that vulnerable people have equal access to services, to me, is not politically correct. But, yes, any non-essential roles have been reviewed and will go.

Q: What about Traffic calming measures, cycling? Are they being held off for the time being?

MC:  I will take that back to the council.

3. How much has Sefton paid to outside private consultants this year?

MC: Private consultants will only be used where they don’t have the necessary skills inside the council, or where it is cheaper to use them. Any proposal to use them goes through a panel and only when there is no alternative are they used. –  they must be cost effective.

4. Market regeneration – could it be scrapped because it is too expensive. When there are loads of empty shops?

MC: Take that back to council.

5. Jonathon Allan (UNISON): 51% of people working in Sefton work for public services. For every £1 they earn they spend 61p in the local authority. It is vital for people in public services that the jobs are kept; we are seeing the decimation of local government. £44 million this year to save, and £20 million next year, it is right to the bone, next year is going to be unbelievable. Eric Pickles talks about the indulgance of local government, we are not going to sit back while they abuse public sector workers. I don’t care who caused this situation, whether it was the bankers or the last Labour government, I just know it was not one public sector worker.

6. After the atrocious dealing with the snow last Christmas, how can we have confidence in you and the council to lead this process?

MC: It is difficult, only you can say whether you have confidence. The people who care the most about public services are helping to manage this process through, none of us wants to be here. What we are doing is unpalatable.

I hold my hands up, and apologise again for the snow – we have had the first stage of the review and will continue with the review.

I hope to prove to you that you can have confidence in me, but depending on your own view that can be difficult.

7.  Behind these cuts are people and families. I have been a carer for my son for 38 years, and we are terrified about what we are hearing. Consultationshould be not be wishy washy, you are only half doing it. And the rumours that go round, they create panic.

Carers save the country £80 billion a year it is estimated. Do you really have a moral obligation to ensure these services continue, I think you do. Every year you have some story about why our services are being cut, though we know this year is different?

MC: Communication: we do need to get better. It was being said that New Directions was going to be closed but it wasn’t going to close. There are resources in the faith sector that could be called upon. I have political restriction, it is a condition of my employment. It is important for me to maintain political neutrality.

9.  Young people – got 7,000 signatures. Why closing youth centres when £6 million is being spent on shops in Maghull. Youth being attacked everywhere, tuition fees, EMA, unemployment – being ostracised. We need the youth workers – not just the centres – they are the ones that encourage us.

MC: Didn’t have any details of spending in Maghull, didn’t think it was council spending. Petitions are an important part of the democractic process – I attended the youth parliament elections. Two petitions were presented at the last council meeting – it’s a decision for elected members but it will give you an opportunity for accountability.

 

It wasn’t clear how much money has been raised but Celia thought we had definitely made enough to cover the room hire (£100).  Kat thanked everyone for coming, especially Ms Carney."