SACC meeting with Sefton Councillors Dowd, Parry and Robertson
March 2, 2011
Minutes
(Text in parenthesis is paraphrased)
The meeting opened with a welcome and small speech from the chair Kat Sumner.
Submitted questions:
1. Gemma Brannan:
From our knowledge you have used emergency funding to keep the Sure Start centres open while you undertake the review but if the review proves that Sure Start should stay open, how do you propose to fund this? Also why don’t you follow suit of Liverpool council and stand up to the Government and refuse these cuts?
Additional question: We have heard that three (Children’s Centre) staff will lose their jobs tomorrow – is this true and if so who are they?
Paula Parry: We are having a review which will be finished in September and we won’t know until September what that says.
Tony Robertson: I’m not aware of redundancies you mention. We started the process to look at where savings can be made. One of the ideas was reducing the number of centres and that was aimed at phase two and three centres. But it was clear quite quickly that that was not the way we wanted to go. I’ve been lobbied a bit about it. So we decided to conduct a review of all centres. There must be opportunities to look for savings across the whole network. I don’t have views about what those savings might be but savings will have to be made, no point pretending otherwise. The review will go on for some months and will report at the end of the year. The desirable outcome is to retain the network of children’s centres, but to find savings from what they deliver. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the House of Commons on this because MPs have been talking about this, and say not to get too fixated on buildings, it’s the services provided that are important. There may be some emerging government policy. The government may impact on the review as well.
Peter Dowd: If the proposals go through it will be more than three people (losing their jobs). My party’s doing it’s best – the other two parties are taking this lying down. I come from a different position. The government are making cuts of £44m but we don’t have to do it so quick. We are in a difficult situation funding it. The Sure Start service we should be funding totally. The buildings are important but the services are crucial. It’s £1.8m on phases two and three – are we going to spend it? I wouldn’t be making those cuts.
Follow-up question to Paula Parry from GB: “Have you actually attended any centres?”
PP: There are guidelines as to what we have to provide and we have been providing over and above those, putting extra services in. We have to look at everything in this difficult year. We don’t want to make big cuts but the country is in a mess. We need new ideas. We are putting a noose around our children’s necks.
2. Jim Ford:
I asked Ms Carney at the last meeting: “What are Sefton doing to make sure the cuts program is not falling disproportionately on our town which is 20 miles distant from the centre of South Sefton (i.e. Bootle, Crosby and Maghull) where Sefton services are increasingly being centralised. What is the outcome of the geographical assessment which Sefton has carried out to ensure equity and that our town is not disproportionately experiencing cuts across a range of services, and that cuts are fairly distributed across the Borough of Sefton” Her response, in short, was that geographical assessments were not being carried out but that assessments based on demographics were. She also said she was happy to develop “neighbourhood approaches” in various ways but could not answer my question about whether we could have a Town Council rather than a “toothless Area Committee”. I would like to pose the same questions to you – What are you doing to ensure the cuts program doesn’t fall disproportionately across Sefton and can Southport have a Town Council which better accommodates its different history, geography (position on the Ribble) and needs (an ageing population)?
.
PP: There has to be a referendum for a town council. I made enquiries and extra grants were awarded on this basis: Bootle - £100m, Southport - £27m, Maghull and Formby - £1m each. So I don’t consider that Southport has suffered. The Area Committee issue comes up tomorrow (At the budget meeting). It needs to be looked at again.
TR: I would hope the decisions are not taken based on geographical differences. Sefton is a diverse area. The Southport councillors would be the first to shout out if they thought Southport was being short-changed. On a town council, Southport had a referendum five/six years ago. That led to one Area Committee. If that debate is re-opened that can change.
PD: It depends what you mean by a town council. Maghull has a town council, the Area Committee is a town council by any other name. Or is it that Southport wants to opt out of Sefton? It’s for the people of Southport to make that decision.
Follow-up: How would they call for a town council?
PD: There would be a referendum, it’s up to the people of Southport to start that process, it’s in your hands.
(Something about a Petition...?)
PD: In reducing expenditure, it hasn’t gone out to ask anyone. In June we (Labour) called a special council meeting on how we were going to consult people about the cuts. The other two parties didn’t turn up. We wanted to start the consultation process. The council haven’t consulted. No consultation at all. The Equalities Impact Assessments were incredibly narrow. It was a sham. And then that has lead to the ridiculous scenario of making the decision to close children’s centres and then doing a u-turn. And there will probably be a u-turn on youth centres too. You have campaigns set against each other. The same with the Botanic Gardens – we make the decision then back away because there wasn’t time to properly consult.
PP: It was playing politics (the meeting set up by Labour). It was worse than anyone thought and that’s because the country had been left in such a mess.
TR: First Peter Dowd says there is no need for cuts then he says we should have had a consultation process. We have no choice, we have to make the cuts.
3. Linda Tilston:
You must not cut the number of Southport Area Committees – there is barely enough time to discuss the issues already being put forward. Instead, cut the number of councillors to one or two per ward. We needed three per ward when councillors had full time jobs as well as their council duties but now they are paid a salary and many have given up or retired from other full time occupations. I understand we could save £330k per year. What steps need to be taken to do this? Does it involve National Government or can it be done locally? Others have put this suggestion several times in the local press. Regarding Youth clubs and playing/football pitches. Could you not ask Tesco and Asda to sponsor these? They make so much money out of our town and put little back. They could be allowed to put up signs showing that these are being sponsored by them, so it will be in return for advertising and goodwill. We cannot allow institutions that keep our young folk off the streets, learning new things and being inspired to close. So, we need our libraries and small clubs e.t.c. Especially if the police force is being cut back and they will not be available for anti-social behaviour problems.
PD: There is a debate to be had (about the number of councillors). There are usually two in a ward (Sefton has three per ward). But even with one per ward we would save £600k, nowhere near the £44m, but have the debate. But other parts of the borough might not want that. As for youth clubs/supermarket sponsorship, it’s a Big Society question, but I don’t think we want to be grateful to Asda, Tesco for providing services. The Big Society is getting smaller every day. That’s not going to solve the problems. They couldn’t put their hands in their pockets when there was a boom on, so they’re not going to in a recession.
PP: We have written to the Electoral Commission to ask to have less councillors per ward. We won’t go from three to one. They will come back to us in 2012. It may come in in 2013. The Boundary Commission will look at the size of the wards.
TR: I wrote to the Boundary Commission – I support going from three to two members. The reality is it isn’t going to be something in the foreseeable future. Going to businesses is not going to get us anywhere near. I wouldn’t be hopeful.
Follow-up question: What about restricting new sites or putting conditions on opening new stores?
TR: We will always try to gets something for the community. Highways, park improvements.
PP: Everyone can contact their local councillors. I don’t have difficulty with businesses giving money. Sainsbury’s has buckets at every till and they give to local projects (calls of “That’s customers’ money not the company’s” from the floor).
4. Paul Rigby:
Would each of the Speakers say if they really have a commitment to decent public services for all or if they believe only those who can afford it should have the best they can buy and everyone else should swallow their pride and go to charities for basic soup kitchen style services?
TR: We would all say we believe in public services in a civilised country. In practice that comes down to the amount of money society has. If there is not enough we are in a bust. That’s why we are reducing services.
PP: All councillors come into it to have the best public services we can provide.
PD: I have a commitment to public services. In the main we live in a wealthy society, the 5th biggest economy in the world. We shouldn’t have to rely in charity. We have got the money. Public services should be provided based on need not on what others feel like giving. The government is ruining this country.
TR: My party didn’t create this bust. Her (Paula Parry’s) party didn’t. Bankers went unregulated by Peter Dowd’s party.
5. Maureen Whalley:
66 Sefton Councillors last year were paid a total of over £1m, that money also includes employers’ pensions, even with the cut in allowances, the three councillors who lead their parties (with special responsibilities payments) will still receive in excess of £30,000 from April 1st 2011 paid for by Sefton council taxpayers, also with a possibility of a reduction in meetings they have to attend. Do you not think that these amounts are excessive? How many jobs could be saved by reducing the amount of councillors? (There was an extra statement about Oldham deciding to cut the number of their councillors).
PD: £1m, 66 councillors - £15k each, so that’s a maximum of 66 jobs that could be paid for. We will have a 5% cut in basic allowances. To go further than that, that is a discussion to have in due course.
TR: Oldham are in the same situation and looking to do the same thing. On the financial issue, I do have a job, it’s not a job I can do full-time. I only work 10 hours a week, that’s because being on the Cabinet takes up a lot of time. My employer only pays me for 10 hours a week and my pension is based on 10 hours a week. If council didn’t pay me I wouldn’t be able to do it.
PP: If you go from 66 to 22 you save two thirds of a million. Independent people made a recommendation and we have said please reduce our wages.
6. Mervyn Evans:
Do the Councillors believe their internecine bickering and spending as listed in last week’s Champion (23/2/11), is more important than the needs and respect of Sefton residents?
PP: Meetings now are completely different to years ago. People would stand up shaking their fists. We work well together now. We can’t agree all the time.
TR: Political debate can sometimes be positive, sometimes be childish. I don’t always like it when it gets to that tribal level. We don’t really achieve anything.
PD: There should be political debate not bickering. Sefton Council has been a hung council since 1986. Most of the time we work together. We are in a democracy - most of the time we get on with it. But there are going to be times when there are disagreements.
Follow-up question: Are councillors allowed a free vote or do they have to vote along party lines? £53k on golf courses?
PP: We are allowed a free vote but we tend to think along similar lines. It would be lovely to say no but we have to deliver a balanced budget. I think two parties will act responsibly and one will not.
TR: Lib Dems tend to be free thinkers. 27 free thinkers will want to put their own perspective on things. Parties do coalesce around certain views. We discuss the debate and decide which way to go. There will be times when we do not go along party lines. I try not to force people down lines they do not want to go down. I do have a whip but don’t tell them to sort out councillors.
7. Tony Wall:
Dear Councillors, please look again at the decision to axe the Duke of Edinburgh scheme and close youth centres in Sefton. I believe 900 of our young people, our future, are presently involved in the scheme. Where does it leave them? I do know that this qualification, is held in high esteem by employers, and says a lot about the character of the person achieving it. On the subject of youth centres, even if the cost is up to £1m, surely that is a price worth paying particularly as we in Sefton have the fourth highest numbers nationally using these resources. I know there are drastic savings to be made in the budget but please don’t take these exceptional resources from our able bodied and disabled youth, which are great channels for their energies.
PD: My daughter did Duke of Edinburgh, it’s fantastic for young people. It’s not just about Duke Of Edinburgh, when you cut Early Years Intervention, Child Trust Fund, primary schools, free and active, further education, clothing grant, bus passes taken off them, youth centres closed, EMA gone, £9,000 uni fees, they are getting battered. Take a step back, we need to fight for young people. Where are we going to get the money? Last year the Labour party wanted to get the consultation process going. We knew the government were making cuts – we wanted to get in early. (PD then spoke about PCT savings of £4m which could have closed the gap). We’ve been at the table the whole time. The cuts are too fast, too deep. For Duke Of Edinburgh scheme, we’ve got to find the money and give those young people a break.
PP: The PCT money comes from the government.
TR: I have a huge amount of sympathy but there is a lack of money. I hope we can make progress and resolve some of the issues. It’s highly likely that Sefton youth services will have to make savings. Is it regrettable? Is it too fast? I wrote a letter to the Times suggesting it would be helpful if there could be more support as we try to deal with this situation. I will try to resolve some of the issues surrounding young people. In Liverpool there looked to be an all-party agreement but that included four Sure Start Children’s Centres – and that has broken it. The reason there is no agreement is over those four children’s centres.
PP: Everybody wants to minimise the cuts for disabled groups. I was speaking to a woman with an autistic son who is looked after for 3 hours – it could be 2 hours if organised differently and not in those buildings. She said that’s fine as long as the service doesn’t stop .
8. Danny McGowan
If Sefton Councillors believe, as we do, that these cuts are unfair and are going to hurt the poorest and most vulnerable the hardest, why have they not organised any marches along the lines of the “Fair deal for Liverpool” event on Sunday 20th Feb, organised by Liverpool City Councillors. Would they use such an event to call on corporations like Barclays to pay the same rates of tax as the rest of us, and for a maximum wage in the public sector to include those bankers whose debts have been nationalised too?
PD: We had a march in Maghull, with 200 mostly young people. We would have had more people with more notice. We have started that process.
TR: I have been a trade union officer and we specialise in marching. I am not sure they achieve a great deal though. I want to lobby government ministers, I think that’s an important thing to do. Paula has done the same thing.
PP: I paid for it myself too (going to London).
TR: That may on face value achieve something. It’s important to influence the people in power. I have also been lobbied by the likes of people here and I have taken that to government.
PP: I’ve never organised a rally, they are usually about just one issue. I don’t think a march would help, unlike lobbying.
On the debts being nationalised....
PD: I don’t want to make cheap shots but you could have a Robin Hood tax which would bring in £30bn a year and would go some way (to cutting the deficit)
10. Terry Durrance:
The council have announced that despite the public spending cuts, the £3.5million upgrade of Southport Market will go ahead. This is despite the fact that the number of existing market tenants is very small (probably only around 10) and the rents to be charged on completion of the upgrade will be such that new traders will not be be attracted into signing expensive leases. For a fraction of the cost that the council are putting into this project, they could offer a financial subsidy to existing tenants and support them in relocating into alternative premises in the area. It is a fact that there are many empty shops in the town centre - some of which have been empty for a very long time. It is wrong to be investing in creating more retail outlets whilst vital council services such as SureStart and Youth Centres are at risk.
PP: The Lib Dems and Conservatives disagree on this. We asked the market stall holders what they thought. It’s better than they thought it would be. People like to go to markets, you get a good service, and you get the cultural centre.
TR: I do disagree. I don’t think it should have been put in. But councillors thought there should be public sector investment. It’s not undesirable. It’s just unaffordable. The money we need to borrow, the running costs in the first year are £400,000, that money could help with the issues we are concerned about.
PD: For years we didn’t invest and we should have done. The Conservatives have pushed for that investment and I am not going to complain about that. It brings in rent and income. It’s nonsense to say cut the market and save children’s centres. I support it but object to £15m investment in cultural centre and people who have been paying £200k for rent... it goes with a coastal town. Southport can pick up on that growth it’s nonsense that we can save the children’s centres [by scrapping the market]. We have a business plan that sets out the costs, we believe it will come into profit.
SACC questions:
11. What sanctions will the Council and councillors face if they fail to agree a legal budget by 10/3/11? Will the council face those sanctions if they pass a budget which is not legal because proposals have not been put to council in accordance with public law surrounding impact assessments and public consultations, therefore meaning decisions have to be made with incomplete or incorrect information and without consultation or on political bias alone?
TR: I hope it’s not the case due to our indecision. We have to set a legal budget however much we dislike what we do. Margaret Carney has tried to have an independent perspective, if she says it’s not legal we have to change it. As it has been developing she knows. The aim of savings .... the biggest risk is not achieveing the savings, she has to be satisfied going into that knowing it is achievable. She would say we could not make that saving. We are in a process driven by money and a short time scale. That could meant with more time we could have made better decisions.
Kat: What if the budget is illegal due to the correct assessments not being carried out?
TR: if the council is challenged it will be subject to the law of the land; if we have done something wrong we could face sanctions.
PD: Do the books balance? She [Margaret Carney] says yes I think you can, she gives a technical judgement. What happens if impact assessments and Consultation processes haven’t been done, I can’t do a great deal. But if an organisation decided to challenge that and the judicial review said [the same] we would have to go back and redo the consultation process.
PP: We have got until the very last moment to set a budget, i’ve been there at 2am and not allowed to go home. The chief executive has got to agree that it is a robust budget.
Questions from the floor:
1. How much is being spent on the town hall clock and the building?
TR: £15 to £16 million, (PP: £15.2 million). The issue we have got was that when the project was planned and started, would you start it now? Would you defer it? The council is involved in contracts with a capital project like Netherton activity centre... it shouldn’t have gone ahead but it would have cost more to stop it than go ahead.
PP: When the cultural centre was started times were different, we received 2 grants of £4 million and £4 million, we had to spend this money by the end of March. The whole project of £15.2 million... if we stoppednow we would have to give 8 million pound back. It will provide something when it is finished.
Q: Are the contractors on the project from Southport?
PP: They showed us a map of Southport where the people working on it came from. Very significant amount are from Southport or Sefton and West Lancs, that is because we said to the developer that we wanted to use local labour and we want you to buy from local suppliers too.
PD: (I believe he said it costs £640 thousand pounds a year to run)
If we were doing it now we wouldn’t because circumstances are different. We have to look forward, we have to have a vision for the future.
Q: Today I supported three families in need (at a Children’s Centre). Who is going to pick up this preventative work if the centres close?
PP: The money spent on youth is spent through youth clubs and many more schemes depending on necessity.
TR: It is a huge challenge, government policy is going to be crucial. I have been to children’s centres and .... have a friend who works there in Southport.
PD: It is well known that £1 spent in early years saves £7 later on. It is short-termism. Down the long term it is going to cost more. Invite us back, we shouldn’t be allowing it to happen. We should protect them above all.
TR: How do you do that? We have (the cuts) front loaded, we could manage the amount they are cutting if they could do it over 3 or 4 years. We as the leaders with the 3 MPs should go down and say to (Communties Secretary) Eric Pickles think again.
PP: the 3 MPs have already been down and done that. One MP has come back and said they are all in a queue with every other MP.
Q What have you got against young people?
TR: I don’t think we have anything against young people. It is unsustainable, that’s why we are making these savings.
Q: We need councils that are prepared to put their neck on the line, we expect the tories not to, but labour should be fighting for people’s interests.
PP: this country is in debt... the governemt would send in a team [to sort out a budget if we refuse to set one]. It would be worse the longer you leave it.
PD: The government ... say we want to pay it off in 4 years. That is a political decision not an economic one. We could pay it over 60 years; we are paying it over 4 years. I fundamentally disagree, economists disagree, it is a complete nonsense. If we put off paying it for longer, we would not be cutting children’s centres, putting tuition fees up etc.
TR: The real issue is we are beholden to the money makers ... if they are not prepared to invest our economy would end up like Greece and Ireland. It is because of what happened when Greece dared to stop...
PD: Greece and Ireland are much smaller, you are not comparing like for like. We are one of the financial markets. We are a fundamental different place. The reality is ... the lib dems, under Nick Clegg, they are economic liberals not social liberals. There is a big debate how the Tories or the liberals in the party are going to run it. People paying are the people in this room.
Q: Sefton is one of the worst hit for cuts, Wokingham has seen an increase in their budget...
TR: The formula the government use to see what each area gets... the reality is it does have results that are not helpful. Liverpool was worse off than us. They look at the formulae, just hope that it’s fairer ...
PD: We have had £35 million extra area based grant, which they cut by 66%. Hertfordshire didn’t have that grant so they didn’t have that cut, it was focused on areas in the north. Will Eric Pickles and the government in two years have a fairer system? No because it is full of Tory and Lib Dem MPs.
PP: we haven’t had huge grant, we had extra money for ringfenced items but now taking a lot of the ringfence out.
Q: Councillor Dowd recently quoted Ireland, their problem is the euro. This town is bedevelled by neglect...
PP: You shouldn’t do cultural centre and the market? If we didn’t do those things, all those things would go down, you should maintain it.
TR: Local authorities can’t put in the money they want, the pier good example. Campaign – I know there is a sinking fund to make sure maintenance is done in the future, there is not going to be much money around. Just spend it wisely. What I want council to do is to descentralise to give more power to individual committees.
PD: massive investment but done with private money... sea wall put up; ocean plaza, joint investment...
Q: next round of cuts, no beach cleaning, etc. Crosby/parking cost money publics – split council up.
TR: Committees can manage themselves. People of southport did prior to 1974, but while it is part of sefton we can only give Southport as much autonomous power as we can.
Q:. It is the kids who are suffering. Are you willing to take if further for your people ... 5 or 10 years this country will be gone. Stand up and do something about it. Get money from the banks
TR: Tax evasion. I work for the HMRC – i have been campaigning to get the government to do something about tax evasion in this country, it contributes to the difficulties we have got,
PP: Northen Rock.. was bailed out.. if it had gone it might have taught others the lesson. There are people who have got something for their families. I understand that is important to you.
Q: New Directions - 28% pay cut from committee set up by the council. Doomed to fail by the council, £3 million deficit for new directions. Can they offer something for New Directions to avoid redundancies and huge pay cuts?
PD: Glen (Williams) was right to raise that point, there are plenty of people who might lose their jobs, ND cost the council £12 million to buy the services, home helps and day centres cut by £3 million. What happened is the terms and conditions looked at and they took a cut, the council wants to consider it for ND. They need breathing space. It’s a case I’ll be trying to make.
Q: Jacob: youth centres, 21 thousand signatures, these are people most find it difficult to speak out.
TR: Jacob made one of the best speeches i have ever heard at the last council meeting. The issue of being lobbied is part of democracy, everybody has been responded to who has contacted me. I have allowed young people to open my eyes to the way they are thinking. I have spent time at Litherland youth ... I can’t speak for all the council but hope they have taken notice. I haven’t stuck my fingers in my ears., that is what democracy is about: having your views taken apart and realising your view might be wrong. I have found it encouraging but difficult.
PP: Jacob has earned a lot for young people, they haven’t been read. Then you talk about disabled services. We want to do the best for disabled people. (But when you have threats to come to people’s houses that doesn’t help at all).
PD: I agree with Jacob’s presentation... you have to listen to these sorts of things there is room for manoeuvre. We started late, so there is now room to move. You spend a lot of money and provide centres for social care. Put all that together and you go to provide contractors and say lets do that more simply. It is a hundred million so let’s knock off 2%, there is an opportunity to do that. No harm in trying. If you go down to government to put your case, demonstrations. It is not about giving in, it is about saying this is what people are telling us. I hope you can do that.
The meeting ended with Kat thanking the three councillors for attending.
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